At Kate Kelly's Sunstone Fireside

I went to Kate Kelly's Sunstone fireside to satisfy my curiosity, to see if I could learn more about what's really motivating Kate Kelly and the Ordain Women movement, what their ultimate goal is. (Everything that follows is paraphrased; if my memory is inaccurate, they videotaped it, and I'm sure it'll be online somewhere.)

It was held in a Community of Christ chapel (formerly known as RLDS church). The opening prayer mentioned blessing those souls who were wounded or weary, those who'd had issues with the church for a long time or those where they were new.

Kate Kelly talked about how she wanted to launch Ordain Woman on the anniversary of the organization of the Relief Society. She had to beg and plead to get the first 20 profiles up for the launch. No one wanted their face on the website if it was only 5 people. She said she called in old contacts, trying to think of everyone she knew who was brave.

She's proud of the fact there are now about 400 profiles on Ordain Woman and less than 5 asked for their profiles to be removed after Kelly was excommunicated. She spoke of the "courageous risk" OW took in participating in an interfaith fast for gender equality in all faith traditions.

She said "every week" she felt "excluded and marginalized" at church and wanted to give women a voice. In reference to OW trying to get into the October 2013 Priesthood session, the church doesn't know how to respond to women who don't just say "yes." She called the October line-up very brave and views it as a big moment for Mormon women. She resented the church having women be the ones to tell OW they couldn't attend the Priesthood session. "Turned away by a woman who could not attend herself."

She spoke more about the mission of OW and brought up the Six Discussions they're writing up. "Unlike the missionary discussions, you can actually discuss them." (Derisive laughter from crowd.) I gather her mission was a lot more stringent about the LDS discussions. On my mission, they very much promoted discussion.

She said the beginning of the conversation sparked by OW was gloomy, but now the conversation is being had in every ward or stake in the world. They sparked a response from the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve. She pointed out that their statement just pointed out the present but did not rule out women being ordained in the future. She mentioned Ally Isom has been in "the position of defending the Patriarchy." First Presidency and Patriarchy seemed to be interchangeable.

She spoke about the scripture "ask, and ye shall receive." Well, she's asking for the Priesthood. She also mentioned the hymn "do what is right, let the consequence follow" and there's no doubt in her mind she's doing the right thing. She said it's hard to be seen as "intransient."

She said she now has no doubt women will eventually be ordained. "We have become speakers of the truth and we have found our voice."

At that point she opened it up to questions.

One drew a comparsion between sexism at work and sexism at church.
Kelly rattled off a bunch of stats on how women in Utah are worse off than in most states.
"Parity won't come until all faith traditions change."

One mentioned she was here to learn, said that John Dehlin had lead her to Kelly. She was one who stood in line to attend the Priesthood session but was glad they weren't let in because she actually had to leave for work. Ally Isom came up again and they criticized her tone, or maybe Isom had said "tone." Either way, I gathered most of the attendees have a low opinion of Isom. She said anyone who brings up a tone argument needs to rethink everything about their life. Mentioned that women are "bossy" while men are "assertive."

Kelly said OW is not just her. She asked those in attendence to stand if they had profiles on OW. Somewhere around 12-15 people stood up. (About 100 total were in attendence.)

She referenced the scriptures, saying we should "weary the Lord with our petitions," that we should ask 70 times 7.

She brought up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. She said the three of them asked to be saved from the fire, but they said if not, we will continue serving the Lord. She compared OW to them, saying we are asking, and if the answer is no, we will continue. She said even if women get the Priesthood tomorrow, OW still has plenty of work to do pushing for gender equality in the church, racial equality, LGBT equality. Mentioned only 2 of the General Authorities are black. Said there's a lot of work to do "integrating women in the church."

She said the Church is trying to control the information and they are struggling with the internet, how any information is available.

She said her stake president told her that she was the only woman in his stake that had a problem with gender equality in the church. After she publicized that remark, about ten women asked for interviews with the stake president. She said Mormon activists are going to be like Whack-A-Mole: you can't excommunicate them fast enough because more will spring up in their place. Said they can't excommunicate hundreds of us, thousands of us. "Well, I guess they could."

Someone asked about what you say to those women who don't want the Priesthood, don't agree with what she's doing. She said to point out to them that they are part of an institute that value us as less. She said to have compassion, have patience. Offer to go through OW's discussions with them. She said to state very clearly that women are not equal in the church.

She compared OW to the "Let Women Pray" movement or "Wears Pants to Church Day." Someone pointed out that the woman behind WPTCD received a death threat.

What to say to those who want to leave the church?
If you can stay, stay, if it's a healthy safe place. For some, it's harmful. You have to speak up.
She said that before 2013 there were zero General Conference talks about women and the Priesthood.

She said she sees 7 years as the maximum goal for women getting ordained. She said it's a huge sacrifice, and getting excommunicated was very painful. But that she spoke with integrity and that it's been worth it.

She concluded that people know what happened to her was wrong.

Closing hymn was "Let Us All Press On." The lyrics took on a new meaning for me in this setting.

Closing prayer was offered to "Our Divine Parents."

Then we had pie. 10-point bonus to any fireside that serves pie.

I'd had a couple questions before I came, and as people lined up to talk to her, none of them came to mind. I felt like I'd got my answers and was okay to head home to the kids. I overheard one person talk about resigning from the church to show solidarity. The people there were friendly and happy to be there. Kindred spirits coming together, a safe place to ask questions. Some were non-members, some had left the church, some had one foot out the door, but most were faithful members who just believe the church has a lot of changes it needs to make.

So in conclusion, Ordain Women is an activist group, a group that plans to agitate/protest/question/poke/prod the LDS church for years to come, whether all of their demands/requests/inquiries are met or not. Most of OW's members are LDS members who want to see change. Some view women in the church like battered-wife syndrome. The abusive, controlling men and the less-than-equal sisters.  They believe in the church, but even if they're excommunicated over it, they plan to weary the Lord with their petitions. It all goes back to Joseph Smith ordaining women. Why did it stop, and will it start up again?

Some other points: when a woman enters sacrament meeting, who is on the stand? Men.
When a woman needs counseling, to whom should she go? A man.
When a woman goes to church court, who are her judges? Men.

I reread her bishop's letter on what it would take for Kelly to be rebaptized in the church. (And to clarify, she wasn't excommunicated for apostasy per se, she was excommunicated "for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church.")

1. Stop teachings and actions that undermine the Church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood.
2. Be truthful with others regarding matters involving your priesthood leaders and church discipline.
3. Stop trying to gain a following for herself or her cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the Church.

(Oh, that was a question I had! Why did the bishop have that 2nd item in there? What has she lied about? Shoot. Oh well.)

Ordain Women's Kate Kelly Is Excommunicated

Nadine Hansen, Kate Kelly and other from Ordain Women on their way to Temple Square in April 2014. (Credit: SLTrib.com)

Well, I think anyone following the story knew this was going to be how it would turn out.

When Ordain Women protested the October 2013 General Conference, that was one thing. When they did again in April, it was clear they weren't just asking the question. They were demanding change. Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a very specific talk on Priesthood in April. Seems like an answer to the question, but I know there were many women bothered by it. ("We're an appendage?")

There are basics that the Church should recognize, should re-evalutate. It's the difference between the culture and the doctrine, and I think this is going to keep coming up. For example, how often does Pres. Monson meet with the General Relief Society President?  Don't really know. But we do know that the Relief Society was never consulted when it came to the Sunday School plans to study a prophet each year, nor were they consulted when The Family: A Proclamation to the World came out. (See the Greg Prince interview with Chieko Okazaki).

Now I've never known public shaming get the Church to change its doctrine, or even policy. And when you see how Ordain Women had created their own discussions to try to convert others to their cause, well, what did Kelly think would happen?

But...

When I read the letter from her bishop where they excommunicated her, he makes it clear that he and the stake president had talked to her about OW and tried to dissuade her. But there's some conflict as far as the timeline goes between what Kelly says and what her bishop says. She did say that she told her bishop in December that she was moving in May.

Now when she moved, why didn't he just write a letter expressing his concerns to her new bishop and just wash his hands of it? She wasn't in his congregation anymore. Holding her records and putting her on probation right after she moved reeks of passive-aggressive behavior. Instead of letting her new leader deal with it, he escalated it by holding a court for her now that she was a couple thousand miles away.

I listened to the first 20 minutes of her interview on Feminist Mormon Housewives podcast which she gave a few days ago. She called the bishop's actions cowardly and un-Christlike, among other things. She called it an abusive process. If anyone in the disciplinary council listened to it, that would have sealed her fate. (But why? Egos?)

To give more information on this matter, here's a brief from Nadine Hansen submitted to the stake president and bishop on why Kelly should not be excommunicated. Here's Kelly's own argument. And here is the bishop's full response on Kelly's excommunication and what she'd need to do to return to the Church.

It comes down to access. As someone pointed out to me, how can women ask their questions? It's not like Emma Smith's day where she could just go to Joseph and say "All this tobacco spit is gross in the Church; can you inquire of the Lord what we can do about it?" You can't ask the First Presidency or the Apostles questions. How cool would it be to have Pres. Monson give a General Conference talk where he just answered members' questions? "These are some questions I've been asked, and I inquired of the Lord, and here is what His will is on these matters." Joseph Smith used to do it all the time.

1. Why aren't sections regularly added to the Doctrine & Covenants? Revelations seemed to slow down after Joseph Smith, and all we've had in the past 130 years is Section 138 and Official Declarations 1 & 2. Is there no revelation received by Heber J. Grant or Gordon B. Hinckley or most of the other prophets worthy of being included?
2. How often does Pres. Monson actually meet with Christ?
3. Will we ever get more information on Heavenly Mother? It's a widely accepted concept that seems to have originated from a song lyric by Eliza R. Snow.

Anyway, this is national news. I'm guessing this gets appealed to the First Presidency, one way or the other.

More Threats of Excommunication

Kate Kelly (Photo: Mormonstories.org)

What's the over-under on there being a picket protest outside of Kate Kelly's stake president's office on the day of her church trial? I've heard candlelight vigils are planned, but as for the actual location where it's happening...?

Anyway, a few more LDS members are finding themselves facing church discipline and letting the world know about it, according to the New York Times. Joanna Brooks calls this the real Mormon Moment.

It is Friday and we hear nothing from our religious leaders in Salt Lake City. We hear only from the Public Relations department, which seems to be doing the best it can to get grips on a situation that has outgrown its control, a situation that makes Mormons appear once again in the public eye as the insular, suspicious, dogmatic, simple-minded, intolerant, and spiritually violent Mormon caricatures that once populated nineteenth-century magazines.

Excommunication - Not a fan

The big news this month is Kate Kelly of OrdainWomen.org and John Dehlin of StayLDS.com facing possible excommunication. The spectre of the 1993's 'September Six" has been raised.

Personally I don't like excommunication. If a person has faith and falls short, this is a step that just shouldn't be taken. Since the inception of the Church, there've been problems with apostasy and falling away and excommunications. It's one of those disciplinary steps that feels steeped in 19th century tradition but is more out of place in a 21st century world.

God never changes, but His children do. That doesn't mean He changes His doctrine with every generation, but when His children ask, He listens. When the children of Israel were wandering the desert and got tired of eating manna, they asked for something else. So God sent quail. Does that mean He changed His doctrine? Yea, behold His doctrine was manna, but then suddenly it was changed to quail. Church isn't true. (crumples up temple recommend)

Spencer W. Kimball

There was great petitioning and questioning when it came to blacks and the Priesthood before the 1978 revelation. Not only did the Church need to be ready for it, but the Brethren through whom the revelation could come. There was even a member excommunicated in 1977 for standing up in General Conference and refusing to sustain the First Presidency over the matter. I've always held it a personal theory that one reason President Harold B. Lee died at the relatively young age of 74 was because he was not ready. But Spencer W. Kimball was.

(UPDATE: This is not me automatically assuming that people questioning the Church now over this or that will be vindicated. I use it as an example of the members desiring a change, petitioning for change, and that change coming via answers to prayers. As for the man who was ex'd over it, I just looked him up and I see he's quite the anti-Mormon now, so never mind on that one.)

Now as far as women in the Church, there are many improvements that can be made. I don't agree with the OrdainWomen movement not because I perceive insincere soul-searching happening there, but if the Church is true, then the Prophet is the one who receives the revelation for the Church, and OW's mission statement says: "Ordain Women believes women must be ordained in order for our faith to reflect the equity and expansiveness of these teachings." This doesn't sound like a petition of the Church; this sounds like a demand. I heard it somewhere else first, but God does not force blessings on His children when the vast majority do not want them. Pres. Hinckley left the door open for women getting the Priesthood if a revelation came, but with over 80% of men and women in the Church not wanting that change, that's all you need to know.

But speaking more broadly, where can a faithful Church member go who has questions? There are many questions raised that don't have answers.

I refer to some General Conference talks that have helped of late on this matter.  Elder Oaks' 2010 talk on two lines of communication was one. Another was an answer to one of my own questions that some friends helped me find. It's a 1971 talk from young Apostle, Elder Boyd K. Packer.

As for dealing with individuals, I loved this Bishop's Response from ByCommonConsent, maybe my favorite LDS blog out there.

As for those who say, "If you don't like it, leave." I say no, please stay. The Church is undergoing tumultuous times, and there will be more to come. In fact, I'd repeat Pres. Uchtdorf's plea to "Come, Join With Us."

One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.⁵

Unanswered Questions

Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.

Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.

Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the “facts” really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.

Mistakes of Imperfect People

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”⁶

This is the way it has always been and will be until the perfect day when Christ Himself reigns personally upon the earth.

It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed.

As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and as one who has seen firsthand the councils and workings of this Church, I bear solemn witness that no decision of significance affecting this Church or its members is ever made without earnestly seeking the inspiration, guidance, and approbation of our Eternal Father. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. God will not allow His Church to drift from its appointed course or fail to fulfill its divine destiny.

There Is Room for You

To those who have separated themselves from the Church, I say, my dear friends, there is yet a place for you here.

Come and add your talents, gifts, and energies to ours. We will all become better as a result.